The Grammar Logs -- Number Sixty-Four

The
Grammar
Logs
# 64

Question When using a portion of a sentence that includes a period, do you include the period in the quote?
Ex: lksadfjlsdfl "... and from the office of the President." jsdafljlsajdf.

Source & Date
of Question Honolulu, Hawaii
30 January 1998
Grammar's
Response You would use a period only when the period serves your own sentence's structural purpose (i.e., it's at the end of your own sentence) or if the period ends a sentence within the quote and then another quoted sentence picks up. (In your example, no, you wouldn't use a period.)

Question Dear Grammar:
I have a question which I have asked around about, but no one is 100% certain of the answer. One of my teachers and I were having a discussion in class about imperative sentences, and she said that English has three forms of imperatives: second person singular and plural and first person plural (let's or let us). I must disagree. In sentences containing "let us" or "let's," the implied subject is still an implied "you." However, she did not listen; she made fun of me, ignored my explanations completely and continued with class. So, my question is: are imperative sentences with the beginning words "let's" or "let us" first or second person.
Thank you very much for your time.
Source & Date
of Question Cedar Rapids, Iowa
30 January 1998
Grammar's
Response
I think you have a very interesting argument. I think you're suggesting that this is a second-person construction in the sense that you are saying "You let us be mindful. . . ." Right? (As opposed to thinking "We let us be mindful. . . .") You should know, though, that the authorities aren't going to back us up in this. This is what Quirk has to say: "First person imperatives can be formed by preposing the verb let, followed by a subject in (where relevant) the objective case.
Let me have a look.
The same applies to 3rd person subjects:
Let each man decide for himself.
If anyone objects, let him speak now."
[Quirk uses slightly different examples.]
It's that "subject in the objective case" that makes this so confusing, I think. Personally, I like your explanation better. Your teacher apparently has the authorities on her side, but I don't think you've taken a position that ought to be lightly regarded.
Authority: A University Grammar of English by Randolph Quirk and Sidney Greenbaum. Longman Group: Essex, England. 1993.

Question Could you give me bibliography about the specific characteristics of scientific texts, poetic texts and so on?
Source & Date
of Question Spain
30 January 1998
Grammar's
Response I'm not sure what you mean, but I think you could probably find the answers you need in Chicago Manual of Style (14th ed. U of Chicago P: Chicago. 1993), but I would certainly try to find it in the library to make sure it's what you need, because it's not cheap!

Question Is black and white people correct?
Is Black and White people correct?
Is Blacks and Whites correct, or blacks and whites correct?
Source & Date
of Question California
1 February1998
Grammar's
Response All of my resources now suggest using lower case for these words, whether you're using them as adjectives or nouns. You will find, however, that usage varies. Consistency is important.

Question I watched a movie the other night called "Mrs. Evers' Boys." According to Patricia O'Connor's grammar book, entitled "Woe Is I," for the possessive form of words that end in "s" you should add 's, e.g., Mrs. Evers's Boys. Which is correct?
Also, I took one of your quizzes and got a mistake because I put an apostrophe in a year, e.g., 1930's. According to O'Connor, we should put an apostrophe.
I'm confused! Help!
Source & Date
of Question Apia, Somoa
1 February 1998
Grammar's
Response Whether to put an additional "s" after a personal name ending in "s" or "z" sounds is an argument that just goes on and on. Ms. O'Connors's way is the easy way to remember, that's for sure. However, a lot of people will argue that that extra "s" creates something difficult to pronounce, and they're right about that. So after names ending in "z" sounds (at least, if not both "s" and "z" sounds), they put an apostrophe, of course, but not the additional "s." I guess it's up to you, but be consistent.
Authority: Chicago Manual of Style 14th ed. U of Chicago P: Chicago. 1993.
How old is Ms. O'Connors's book? My reference manuals are now saying that you needn't put an apostrophe after a number to create its plural: 1940s, SAT scores in the 700s, etc. To put an apostrophe in there, however, is certainly not wrong, just different from what most authorities are now claiming to be the correct method.
Authority: New York Public Library Writer's Guide to Style and Usage HarperCollins: New York. 1994.

Question What should a thesis contain?
Source & Date
of Question Pepperell, Massachusetts
1 February 1998
Grammar's
Response I recommend that you visit the online writing site called Paradigm, and check out what Chuck Guilford has to say about writing with a thesis. It's quite thorough and helpful and easy to understand, I think. Tell Chuck I said hello.

Question If I am writing to tell someone thanks for taking the time to write, do I express it as A) or B):

I appreciate your taking the time to write...
I appreciate you taking the time to write...
It's a simple question of 'your' versus 'you.' Can you help? And if possible tell me why?
Thanks.
Source & Date
of Question Washington, D.C.
2 February 1998
Grammar's
Response Sometimes this can be a hard choice. Ask yourself what you are appreciating: is it the person you appreciate in the midst of his doing something or is it the act of his taking the time to write. I think it's the latter, so I would say "I appreciate your taking the time to write."

Question What is proper: can not or cannot?
Source & Date
of Question Unknown
3 February 1998
Grammar's
Response I have never seen this explained satisfactorily, but the word is cannot -- unless you are really trying to emphasize the negative (as if you were shouting the not): "You are NOT going to do that in this house!"

Question What is the difference between "punch" as a verb and "punch" as a noun. Is there any association in meaning between these two part of speeches.Give me some examples please!
Source & Date
of Question Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
3 February 1998
Grammar's
Response The dictionary gives many definitions for this word. The meanings you probably have in mind are a punch as in a blow delivered by the fist to someone (as in "He punched me in the nose!") and the punch that something has, the feeling (or nearly violent effect) that you get from it. We could say that a play or a movie that has a strong social message has "a real punch to it." Is that what you mean?

Question Could you kindly explain what are the following grammatical terms and their functions:

(A) Relative clause?
(An) Agent?
Could you also explain the history of the idiom "You're kidding."
Source & Date
of Question Buffalo, New York
3 February 1998
Grammar's
Response A relative clause is one in which a relative pronoun (who, which, or that) serves as the subordinating connector between the dependent clause and as subject itself of the dependent clause. In the sentence, "My wife, who attended college in New York, has gone back there many times", the word "who" relates the dependent clause (which it also introduces) to the subject of the sentence, "wife." Incidentally, "wife" is also the agent of the sentence, which simply means she is the doer, the initiator of action in the sentence ("has gone back there").
As for "you're kidding," I don't have the slightest idea, and I don't happen to have the resources to find out for you. Sorry.

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Question	When using a portion of a sentence that includes a period, do you include the period in the quote? Ex: lksadfjlsdfl "... and from the office of the President." jsdafljlsajdf.
Source & Date of Question	Honolulu, Hawaii 30 January 1998
Grammar's Response	You would use a period only when the period serves your own sentence's structural purpose (i.e., it's at the end of your own sentence) or if the period ends a sentence within the quote and then another quoted sentence picks up. (In your example, no, you wouldn't use a period.)

Question	Dear Grammar: I have a question which I have asked around about, but no one is 100% certain of the answer. One of my teachers and I were having a discussion in class about imperative sentences, and she said that English has three forms of imperatives: second person singular and plural and first person plural (let's or let us). I must disagree. In sentences containing "let us" or "let's," the implied subject is still an implied "you." However, she did not listen; she made fun of me, ignored my explanations completely and continued with class. So, my question is: are imperative sentences with the beginning words "let's" or "let us" first or second person. Thank you very much for your time.
Source & Date of Question	Cedar Rapids, Iowa 30 January 1998
Grammar's Response	I think you have a very interesting argument. I think you're suggesting that this is a second-person construction in the sense that you are saying "You let us be mindful. . . ." Right? (As opposed to thinking "We let us be mindful. . . .") You should know, though, that the authorities aren't going to back us up in this. This is what Quirk has to say: "First person imperatives can be formed by preposing the verb let, followed by a subject in (where relevant) the objective case. Let me have a look. The same applies to 3rd person subjects: Let each man decide for himself. If anyone objects, let him speak now." [Quirk uses slightly different examples.] It's that "subject in the objective case" that makes this so confusing, I think. Personally, I like your explanation better. Your teacher apparently has the authorities on her side, but I don't think you've taken a position that ought to be lightly regarded. Authority: A University Grammar of English by Randolph Quirk and Sidney Greenbaum. Longman Group: Essex, England. 1993.

Question	Is black and white people correct? Is Black and White people correct? Is Blacks and Whites correct, or blacks and whites correct?
Source & Date of Question	California 1 February1998
Grammar's Response	All of my resources now suggest using lower case for these words, whether you're using them as adjectives or nouns. You will find, however, that usage varies. Consistency is important.

Question	I watched a movie the other night called "Mrs. Evers' Boys." According to Patricia O'Connor's grammar book, entitled "Woe Is I," for the possessive form of words that end in "s" you should add 's, e.g., Mrs. Evers's Boys. Which is correct? Also, I took one of your quizzes and got a mistake because I put an apostrophe in a year, e.g., 1930's. According to O'Connor, we should put an apostrophe. I'm confused! Help!
Source & Date of Question	Apia, Somoa 1 February 1998
Grammar's Response	Whether to put an additional "s" after a personal name ending in "s" or "z" sounds is an argument that just goes on and on. Ms. O'Connors's way is the easy way to remember, that's for sure. However, a lot of people will argue that that extra "s" creates something difficult to pronounce, and they're right about that. So after names ending in "z" sounds (at least, if not both "s" and "z" sounds), they put an apostrophe, of course, but not the additional "s." I guess it's up to you, but be consistent. Authority: Chicago Manual of Style 14th ed. U of Chicago P: Chicago. 1993. How old is Ms. O'Connors's book? My reference manuals are now saying that you needn't put an apostrophe after a number to create its plural: 1940s, SAT scores in the 700s, etc. To put an apostrophe in there, however, is certainly not wrong, just different from what most authorities are now claiming to be the correct method. Authority: New York Public Library Writer's Guide to Style and Usage HarperCollins: New York. 1994.

Question	If I am writing to tell someone thanks for taking the time to write, do I express it as A) or B): I appreciate your taking the time to write... I appreciate you taking the time to write... It's a simple question of 'your' versus 'you.' Can you help? And if possible tell me why? Thanks.
Source & Date of Question	Washington, D.C. 2 February 1998
Grammar's Response	Sometimes this can be a hard choice. Ask yourself what you are appreciating: is it the person you appreciate in the midst of his doing something or is it the act of his taking the time to write. I think it's the latter, so I would say "I appreciate your taking the time to write."

Question	Could you give me bibliography about the specific characteristics of scientific texts, poetic texts and so on?
Source & Date of Question	Spain 30 January 1998
Grammar's Response	I'm not sure what you mean, but I think you could probably find the answers you need in Chicago Manual of Style (14th ed. U of Chicago P: Chicago. 1993), but I would certainly try to find it in the library to make sure it's what you need, because it's not cheap!

Question	What should a thesis contain?
Source & Date of Question	Pepperell, Massachusetts 1 February 1998
Grammar's Response	I recommend that you visit the online writing site called Paradigm, and check out what Chuck Guilford has to say about writing with a thesis. It's quite thorough and helpful and easy to understand, I think. Tell Chuck I said hello.

Question	What is proper: can not or cannot?
Source & Date of Question	Unknown 3 February 1998
Grammar's Response	I have never seen this explained satisfactorily, but the word is cannot -- unless you are really trying to emphasize the negative (as if you were shouting the not): "You are NOT going to do that in this house!"

Question	What is the difference between "punch" as a verb and "punch" as a noun. Is there any association in meaning between these two part of speeches.Give me some examples please!
Source & Date of Question	Victoria, British Columbia, Canada 3 February 1998
Grammar's Response	The dictionary gives many definitions for this word. The meanings you probably have in mind are a punch as in a blow delivered by the fist to someone (as in "He punched me in the nose!") and the punch that something has, the feeling (or nearly violent effect) that you get from it. We could say that a play or a movie that has a strong social message has "a real punch to it." Is that what you mean?

Question	Could you kindly explain what are the following grammatical terms and their functions: (A) Relative clause? (An) Agent? Could you also explain the history of the idiom "You're kidding."
Source & Date of Question	Buffalo, New York 3 February 1998
Grammar's Response	A relative clause is one in which a relative pronoun (who, which, or that) serves as the subordinating connector between the dependent clause and as subject itself of the dependent clause. In the sentence, "My wife, who attended college in New York, has gone back there many times", the word "who" relates the dependent clause (which it also introduces) to the subject of the sentence, "wife." Incidentally, "wife" is also the agent of the sentence, which simply means she is the doer, the initiator of action in the sentence ("has gone back there"). As for "you're kidding," I don't have the slightest idea, and I don't happen to have the resources to find out for you. Sorry.